Tiggy - See Xrays - heart pig??

dancbtmkr

Post   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:26 pm


Sorry this is long, but ....
I've had guinea pigs for over 10 years, and consider myself a "guinea pig guy". Let's say I'm not a novice. I've been coming to this web site for many years and have learned alot. I used to post here too, but I can't remember my login info so forgive me this says first post.

Tiggy is a 5.5 year old male. He's had zero health issues up until about 2 weeks ago. At first he seemed a "little off" and we watched him even closer than we always did given his age. Now, since about last Thursday or so he really took a nose dive. It was quite abrupt. He always gets weighted daily and never more than .5oz of a fluctuation. His normal weight is @ 41oz. He's not at 36.5 to 37 oz. in about 10 days of loss. Body condition is poor, some poops, but small and not normal.

His symptoms are/were reluctance to move. Not coming out to his plate for the AM and PM food routine. Picky. Just wants the treat type food. Now he's turning down just about everything. Sleeping. Sleeping. We took him to the vet (first time out in the world for him). He freaked. It was terrible. We were a fill in appt and we sat in the car with him for 4+ hours. 1.5hrs dirve each way. He would not settle down at all. He broke a front tooth on the carrier in the process.

Keep in mind here in PA, Covid means you don't even get to go in or talk to the DR. We dealt with a tech who was very nice. We were informed that they diagnosed him with a URI. His eyes were a big goopy, and he had the sneezes. With all that time close up in the car I picked up on the sneezes that I didn't notice before. With him constantly boiling in the cage, his breathing did seem a bit labored. They gave him a Vit C shot, and Batril and eye drops. I did ask them to look at his teeth and the tech said the DR said they looked OK. I have pads and a scope but his is impossible to get a good look.

He's been on that since Friday, and the eyes and the sneezes are better, but he is not. His eating habits are the same. Reluctant to move, just pics at hay and pellets in his house. We put it right around for him since he won't come out like normal otherwise. He seems ok with hard food, hes eating pellets and picking at hay, but doesn't wanna come out of his house, nor do anything of the normal routines.

Listened with a scope last night and his heart sounds OK. Nothing jumps out at you. No lung noise. His color is not good. He seems pale. His pads and his nose are not a good pink color. I've had a heart pig before so I'm versed in that. I have access to a local vet (not GP vet) where I had Xrays done. I attached a couple. I've compared them to the ones on the "heart page" here and to me it's inconclusive. Can you heart pig people take a look at them and give your opinion? His symptoms point to a heart pig, but 1, why so abrupt, and 2, do these X-rays show an enlarged heart?

One more thing. What makes this all the more difficult is he fights me awful to get CC syringe fed. Like it's almost cruel. It's awful. I've never had a pig fight me like that. Keep in mind up until his illness he would get benebac, little pain meds, etc and he would yank the syringe off you he wanted it so bad. I don't know why he fights it now. He is so strong to fight, but in piggyville he just wants to sleep and lay down.
I'm really worried for all the above reasons, esp since I can't keep his weight up like I would in this situation.

I'm in northeastern PA and there are pretty much no piggie vets around here. There's Cornell U and one vet whom I won't name. I've had mixed results with both. I'm not trying to score points here, I just want to help Tig get better. Right now I cannot take him on an all day adventure again. He might not make it. Oh, one more thing we did get a CBC done and all numbers are normal. Did not to kidney and liver function tests as more blood would be needed.

Any advice or suggestions I'd really appreciate.

Thanks!

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User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:17 pm


I am a rank amateur when it comes to reading xrays but it seems to me that in comparison to the images on the heart page, your xrays have the heart rather faint/pale and it does not look enlarged if you go by the guidelines there. Someone who knows much more than I do might come to a different conclusion.

If it is a URI, the Baytril should help - however, you likely know that Baytril can negatively affect appetite, which is not what you need.

So I can't really offer any useful info but am pulling for your guy.

If you can point me to any of your earlier posts, I can fix up your account (get it reactivated) and we can perhaps link to other posts about your guinea pig.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:25 pm


To me, the x-rays are less conclusive than his symptoms. I have only had one confirmed "heart" pig over the years, but what you describe sounds circulatory/heart-related to me. How are the margins on his ears?

I did send a note to one of our resident members who has quite a bit of experience with heart pigs, to see if she could stop by and take a look at your images. Hopefully she will see it and offer her opinion.

pinta

Post   » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:33 pm


I stink at reading xrays but everything you say sounds like a heart issue. Bad colour - probably has cold feet? Sleeping, not wanting to move? he's probably fighting you on the syringe because he can't breathe properly while eating. My guess is he has a URI but with an underlying heart condition it's really hard for him to beat it.

Just had a skinny into the vets for the same thing. She wanted up in my lap which was weird and when I picked her up I realized her feet were cold and her body, cool. I gave her oxygen and heart meds and watched her carefully. A couple of hours later she went to the vet as she was now blowing snot and breathing way too rapidly. Vet didn't think she'd make it overnight but gave her a baytril injection and a lasix injection. I took her back home, set her up in a basket in a clear bag for occasional oxygen treatments in front of a heater. It was slow going but after about 4 days she was much improved. Oh and I doubled her fortekor(heart med). She is now back to Fortekor once a day and getting private feeding sessions to try and get her weight back up. The URI is gone. I'm convinced without the heart meds she wouldn't have made it. Seems her heart condition affected her immune system allowing her to get a URI. Close contact with a dozen other pigs and they are all fine.

When there is a heart problem the pig has to make a choice between breathing, moving and eating. That's why Heart pigs lose weight or become inactive or sleep all the time. Sounds like your pig can't breathe, eat or move. I strongly recommend Fortekor and Vetmedin along with the Baytril. If you can hear gurgling noises in the lungs, Lasix would help. But be aware lungs filled with fluid won't make any noise. Hopefully someone who can read an xray will check in on the xrays posted. Make sure you are providing extra warmth. The small poops indicate dehydration which also cause inappetance so you need to get fluids in him. Subcue is the easiest method. If you can't do that syringe water in slowly. Make sure he also gets extra vitamin C.

Yeah, we're doing most of our vet visits in parking lots due to Covid.

dancbtmkr

Post   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:49 am


So here's the update, today is 10.28.20. He's pretty much the same. When we did the AM med/treatment routine he seems not happy. His back feet are pale, maybe white even. His overall body temp isn't cold, but not warm. His weight was better, we gave him fluids last night too in addition to everything else. His weight this morning before fluids is 37.55. Normal/good is 41 for him. Poops were better, larger and not dry.

He's been on baytril since Friday night. Have enough for a 2 week run. She and I listened with a steth and didn't get fluid noises, but maybe a little bit of labor on the exhale. We started him on Benazepril 1mg/kg twice daily. He's getting subcu around 15ml twice a day. Benebac, critical care orally as much as he'll let us, light dose of metacam, light dose of lasix, Vit C injection, oh, and I lit the stove. It's about 75 degrees in there now. Definitely warmer. He was not happy with all the poking and prodding. Had to be done. :(

After we put him back, he started eating right away? OK. *shrug* Hes now back to sleeping and picking at hay and pellets in his house. Before I put him back his feet showed more color than when we started? He's really not moving much so maybe that has something to do with the color. His nose is kinda on the not very pink side. His ears, edges are ok. Rest of them almost on the purple side? Hard to describe. I'll get a photo. How long does it take before heart meds normally show results? Few days? Should I consider giving the vetmedin as well or wait to see if what he's on now has a positive effect?

Tiggy on a better day below :)

Thank you all.

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pinta

Post   » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:25 pm


You should see improvements with the Benazepril within 24 hours. Sometimes as fast as 12 hours. Yes give him the Vetmedin - it makes the Benazepril work better. Depending on the dose, improvement from Lasix happens within 45 minutes to an hour. That is based on max dose. Minimum doses you should expect a slower and more gradual improvement.

We usually used at least 1 mg/kg (Benazepril) twice daily and occasionally have gone up to 2 mg/kg, if they weren't responding. This is from an email I sent someone as I couldn't find the info on the med page here. I have had a pig on 2mg/kg twice a day. That was one my vet said was teetering on the edge. She did fine.

You might want to up the dose to start and then back down.

Baytril can often cause lack of appetite so the trick is to give the food he likes as he might turn down regular stuff. Pigs can also show an intolerance to Baytril which makes them look like they are getting worse. If this is the case you need to switch ABs. We've always found Doxycycline to work well with URIs and easily tolerated. But Baytril can hit a larger variety of bacteria at one time. In a perfect world you'd send a culture off to the lab to ID the best AB to use.

I was very happy when our Skinny finished her course of Baytril as I knew her weight would finally start going up. One minute she'd like apple and the next minute hated it.

Make sure he has extra heat to compensate for bad circulation.

dancbtmkr

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:00 pm


Update 11.3.20

So he's now stablized as far as the URI and respiratory issues. For the last 6 days or so his problem is bloat/gas. You can feel in in his belly just to the front of his back legs just like seen in the web site for massage. When you touch/press there he does NOT like it. We've got a system down now to syringe feed him. He's not liking that either, but it works. I feel hes reluctant to eat normally because of his gassy belly.

We are still giving him the gambit of meds as listed above, fluids twice a day, encouraging hay/pellets, limiting greens however he's limiting them on his own. He's just uncomfortable. He's picking at hay and pellets, and his poos are normal, just a little on the small side but better than a week ago. His behavior is better than a week ago as well, but not back to normal per sae.

He's getting critical care several times a day as time allows us. (IE as often as possible assuming one of us is here) I'd say he's getting maybe 15 to 25cc of it depending on the day.

He's getting Simethecone (SP?) but his gas will not abate. He's not a balloon, but it's enough to make him uncomfortable and reluctant to eat. I put a call into the Vet to request some Metacloprimide and/or Cisipride. Its a robo med line that says 24 to 48 hours response.

I'm not 100% certain his teeth are good, but when he does decide to eat he doesn't struggle with it/chew to one site/bad front line up/etc. His weight is fairly stable, but that's with us syringing him quite a bit and the subq twice a day.


Anything else I can do to get him past this gas/bloating?

Thank you all.

pinta

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:41 pm


Yes to Metacloprimide. Definitely.

Long periods of hand feeding can result in molar overgrowth as the teeth don't need to do the grinding action that keeps them in check. Massage his jaw muscles twice a day with a plastic wrapped bristle end of an electric toothbrush. This will help the muscles that weaken when they stop grinding their teeth. Also hold his mouth together (gently) while hand feeding to force the molars into contact. Check out the Chin-Sling info on this site if you thionk his jaw muscles have weakened to a great extent.

dancbtmkr

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:28 pm


I'm doing all that. I have a chin sling. :)

I'm not thinking it's teeth. He's poofy and uncomfortable. MetaClop will be here Friday, possibly sooner from another source. I'm always rubbing his jaw when hand feeding. I've can't recall a time when "da bloat" wouldn't let go after this many days. I did have one of those piggies a long time ago, but there was spoogy but and the like with him. This pig has perfect shaped hot dogs, and just on the small side since he's not himself.

Maybe I'll bust out the chin sling and see how he responds to it. TY Pinta. Does she still make those? I sent her an email a piggie or two ago and I got no response. The one I have is pretty tired and I'd like to have another.

pinta

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:44 pm


I do still make them and always respond. The email might have ended up in your spam file.

Try tilting him so his butt is higher than his snout and very gently massaging his tummy. Might be easier for gas to make its way out if he's in that position.

User avatar
Sef
I dissent.

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:58 pm


I have a senior with chronic GI issues, and swear by tummy massage--in addition to Metoclopramide, Metacam if needed, warmth, fluids and Critical care. Manual massage can be very effective, but I also have a small hand-held massager that is pretty good at moving gas.

User avatar
Lynx
Celebrate!!!

Post   » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:11 pm


One member described how she massaged her guinea pig with bloat. If you give it a try, proceed very cautiously.
https://www.guinealynx.info/records/view ... f=15&t=117

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